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Patreon Q&A: April 2024 (Patreon)

Published:
2024-04-28 18:00:06
Edited:
2024-04-29 04:26:22
Imported:
2024-05
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[Text Transcript]

Hey everyone! This month's Q&A might be the longest yet, and I nearly forgot to record it, haha. I hope the answers are interesting.

Edit:

Thank you to everyone who went to the effort of getting through to me in the comments! This Q&A has info that's now outdated. The cultural outfits will specify what they are with the proper cultural names. It won't be something players can imagine about.

Comments

solaslow74

Nice! This was a great Q&A, really engaging even if some of it was covering previously discussed subjects for newer members. These might be my favorite posts to see pop up in my notifications- thanks for doing them!

skitso

yay!!! thanks kab^^

Konoi Kurozora

Thanks for the answers as usual! It's always so interesting to read these!

Rose

Hi, so I wanted to say I'm not the original poster who asked the cultural outfit question but I do wanted to say that answer comes off as extremely lazy and ignorant. All cultural outfits are one thing even though they might "look similiar" like a karabella and a jalisco but they belong to Haitian and Mexican cultures respectively. It might be pointless to you but that's important to players of color. Also leaving up what they are called to the player is also objectively not a good move, it could cause another debacle where someone tries to say a cultural outfit isn't from the actual country of origin. For example, someone could claim that a hanbok is Japanese or a charro suit is from Argentina or say it's vaguely from South America which would be ignorant and racist of them to say but it would also be a shitty situation to put your players in to be frank. Also, this made me actually curious as to what the actual code is for the cultural clothing and to put it bluntly, you labeled every cultural piece by their country along with the names, save for the ankara dress and top which you have listed as just african (which is just frankly anti-black to lump a specific country's cultural attire under a fucking continent but that's another conversation.) So really there isn't a actual excuse for you, which is just insulting to me. Learning the names of these important garbs are important, their not interchangable at all and whether you like it or not you need to accurately represent those garbs or don't include them and the cultural aspect in the game if you are so gung-ho about half assing this. Frankly, this comes off as you trying to just profit off of diversity and inclusivity without actually putting the leg work into it and I'm honestly disgusted and enraged by your answer and decision on this going forward. Normally this would be a dm but I can't let anyone else think that neglecting to add such an important feature is ok to do.

Alex
>>136494439

Insinuating they're trying to profit off diversity and inclusivity is wild, given the base game is, y'know, FREE. Not to mention the series has some of the best representation I've ever seen, but go off I guess. I'm pretty sure it's just because it'd be impossible to draw and code a thousand and one different cultural garbs, have them all labelled and noted, and also make sure characters of other backgrounds couldn't wear them inappropriately.It's not half-assed in any way, it's just so people can feel even more represented if they want to. It's the neck part of a garb, so I'm not sure why you're ascribing that it must be this or that to it. Many neck parts of cultural wear share similar features and could be interchanged. Not the rest sure, but the neck? Definitely.

gbpatch
>>136494439

Hey, I’m sorry this really hurt you. Unfortunately, this is something we still disagree on and I’m not planning on changing the feature. But I don’t know why the programming was like that because I did know the dress was called an Ankara. It’s what I searched for to get references and what’s in the design doc I made. I didn’t program the dress-up feature, but I can show a screenshot of an email that shows the artist confirming what was asked for, which included an African Ankara Dress. The description I wrote was in a Word Doc, but that’s easy to edit which is why I’m sending the artist’s email reply with their email and a personal part of the message blacked out. https://i.gyazo.com/7c330376fcd873a328a1b2229443a492.jpg However, I don’t want to make it where people from less visible places and ethnicities don’t even get to imagine that an option on a menu of many different styles is even similar to their own heritage. And right now the outfits in the beta are highly distinct, but we’re gonna be adding collars from the UK and such that you just can’t insist only belong to England or so on. If it was full outfits, it’d be different but with only a collar, there will be players who are going to imagine the outfits being entirely different from the full references we used to have the layer made, and I don’t think that’s unfair of them to do when there’s so many different people in the world and outfits that are similar to more than one country are going to be included later on.

Rose
>>136494439

@Alex Full offense, she literally has four paid dlcs in the work and she is a white woman who literally used the cultural aspects as parts of her advertising for the kickstarter, we are literally paying her right now on this patreon. So yes, she is profiting off of the game. Also, to be frank, this criticism is for her so unless you are her, I don't even understand why you are coming to defend her, especially if you aren't even on the dev team.

dulcie ♥

Honestly, I think including the names of the cultural items should be included... like, at least. it feels disingenuous to find something from a specific culture and then "leaving it up to interpretation." The problem with interpretation is people will in turn misrepresent or misinterpret it - It's not excluding people to name it. Most places enjoy people respecting their culture and dress as long as it's done properly. To take something and not even name it while also making it a major thing you can do in the moment is frustrating :/

dulcie ♥
>>136499171

I really think hiring a sensitivity reader would be helpful, just for future problems to be diverted.

Glitchy Pix (Shine)
>>136494439

I think you're sort of missing the point being made here GB Lady,. This feature could've been a good addition both in terms of representation of different cultures as well as a good opportunity for people to consider their MC's culture to maybe expand on it more when creating them which could lead to further educating them on cultures different from their own. None of that is really possible if you refuse to actually label what these cultural outfits are meant to be in-game. It's not exclusionary to name what the cultures you're representing are. I'm sorry to be blunt but you're not going to appease people by just telling them to imagine that their culture is being represented when it isn't, it'd be better to just include the actual names of the cultures you are represented so that those cultures actually get to be represented

dulcie ♥
>>136499171

Someone's cultural clothing should not have the ability to be misrepresented, appropriated, or disrespected? Like, most people's view of cultural clothing are POC (or, at the very least, non-white.) Hopefully the implications of going "I will add this outfit but I'm gonna pretend that isn't what it is just to make sure I can appease the audience"

gbpatch
>>136494439

I could be getting this wrong, and I don't mean to. It's just that the game has done this for everything. It doesn't make you choose a culture/ethnicity, you type it in. You don't pick from actually represented backgrounds and just have to accept that other things aren't there, you decide it for yourself and imagine the rest. I wanted to carry that all the way through so people could continue to create their MC. But maybe I'm giving our players too much credit to think they wouldn't do something wrong with that freedom.

gbpatch
>>136499171

Here's a reply to a comment up there, but it's my thought process for why I chose this- I could be getting this wrong, and I don't mean to. It's just that the game has done this for everything. It doesn't make you choose a culture/ethnicity, you type it in. You don't pick from actually represented backgrounds and just have to accept that other things aren't there, you decide it for yourself and imagine the rest. I wanted to carry that all the way through so people could continue to create their MC. But maybe I'm giving our players too much credit to think they wouldn't do something wrong with that freedom.

Marshie
>>136494439

To be honest? I think you are. I know you don't tend to stay super in touch with the fandom, so maybe you aren't aware of the situation but there have been some pretty bad incidents of people erasing, misrepresenting, or fetishizing other cultures. This gives them more ammo to continue doing that.

dulcie ♥
>>136499171

You absolutely are. If you give even an inch, people will pull for a mile. Think about it this way - the fans already are disregarding what you've said for Qiu's sexuality, preferences and pronouns. Are you going to let them pick what they wear to the wedding? Put them in a suit? Look as masculine as possible? Because if you start here, giving them the option to have full control over someone else's traditional clothes, where will they stop? What's the point where you're going to look back and go "I've pulled another situation like Derek's"? I know you disconnect yourself from the fandom for good reason, but people can be awful. I *know* you've seen it and been told it. It shows in the servers, on the tumblr, on the twitter - any space that there's an opportunity, people are going to take it.

dulcie ♥
>>136499171

Fans can't even critique the first game without getting harassed. Imagine giving the leeway under the hopes people will be respectful for the second, when one of the main characters is non-white and not-straight??

gbpatch
>>136499171

You're right. I'm sorry I wasn't getting it. When I design features I'm thinking of players who are approaching the game in good faith and are people who often are told they're not a part of a game's world for some unfair reason about themselves. So I want to do things as much as possible to not make people feel isolated or left out, even if it means just giving them room to write it down and imagine the rest. But that ideal concept that I want to be true isn't the whole story. There are shitty people who are gonna play this game and I don't want to go so far with the customization that the game leaves room to then treat others badly. I'll add the names to outfits names and players won't be able to misuse them. And for designs that are more general, I can simply give them more generic descriptive names like button shirt or something.

Glitchy Pix (Shine)
>>136494439

Again, apologies for being blunt but your fandom has a racism problem, a fairly notable one. From the white favouritism they show the one fully white li in the first game to the way I've seen several fans harass people of colour for criticising how aspects of the games are handled and that's glossing over so much else. I would not expect that sort of fandom to handle cultural clothing options handled like this with grace or respect

gbpatch
>>136494439

You're all right. I want to make a game for people who just want to make a character that's like them and not hurt anyone else. I don't want the game to be popular with or for anyone who'd use the features in bad faith. But I can't make that true. Fans will be unkind to others fans, so the game can't add to that. I'm sorry I frustrated everyone. I'll change this feature so it's clear and cannot be misconstrued.

Rose
>>136494439

Hi, meant to respond but the comments kept flooding in and I wanted to respond to everything you have said thus far. So first thing first, the ankara dress itself isn't the issue. The issue I had was that you (also the artist and programmer but they were copying what you had sent) lumped it underneath Africa when specifically it's moreso a fabric that's used for dresses and the like in West Africa. Other parts of the continent don't have the same fashion as West African countries like Nigeria and Ghana. It's a extremely common (and anti-black) misconception that all african nations follow the same sense of fashion which is why I pointed it out. It's simply not accurate and perpetuates a racist stereotype. Also using the UK is a bad example for it because the country colonized and enforced most of their fashion sense on the entire planet. That pales in comparsion however, to this line that truly enraged me; "I don’t think that’s unfair of them to do when there’s so many different people in the world and outfits that are similar to more than one country are going to be included later on." Is it not unfair to the actual people who your modifying their culture for the comfort of a playerbase that has been shown time and time again that will misinterpret things like Qiu's gender and sexuality and Cove's mixed race if given the chance? It's a foolish notion to give your players that amount of freedom and really power to say that an outfit is something different because it's "similar to something else." You have never had your culture misrepresented, appropriated and fetishized by people because they think it's "sexy" or "funny" or even "ugly". It's not something you can disagree on because at the end of the day you are a white woman whose making this game, you have the power here. You are going to profit off of this game no matter what, but you will unfortunately put the wrong thoughts in people's head about using these special garbs for their own means without the context of where these garbs come from. In these times, people will openly be ignorant if you let them. Which was the main crux of my issue, I do not want you to get the wrong impression that I think this feature sucks. I think personally it's an amazing aspect to the game but it needs to be handled with extreme care first and foremost. You can't stop shitty people from doing shitty things, but you ultimately have the control to limit how much they can get away with it. And you're not limiting anyone's imagination, you are giving them context on what the outfit would actually look like so if they do go out of their way to search it up and draw it, people can accurately depict it correctly. Hell, people might even be interested in the culture and learn which is something to actively encourage especially due to most of your fanbase being minors. But they can't learn if you're not willing to give them the chance to know in the first place.

Rose
>>136494439

Hopefully, I hope I am making sense here and while everyone had more smaller responses, I really wanted to explain where I was coming from.

gbpatch
>>136494439

No, you're entirely right. Sometimes I get too caught up in the grand idea of letting people be themselves that it's not being reasonable anymore. It can be hard to wrap my mind around the fact that a lot of people do actually play these games and it's not just this limited bubble of people I can trust. I've got to do better at being pragmatic and taking things how they really are. Thank you for bringing it up and being willing to explain it twice. The feature won't be finished until it's something that will actually improve the experience for the people I actually want to enjoy this game and not a tool for those who want to skirt around being considerate and understanding of others.

Rose
>>136494439

Thank you for understanding where I'm coming from 😭

gbpatch
>>136494439

Of course! I should have listened the first time. Your advice has always been good. But I knew the feature didn't work in its current state with almost no functions/options, so I was thinking once everything is done it'll make sense with the rest of the systems and people will be able to like it then. But that just made me miss the point on what people really had a problem with.

Rose
>>136494439

Aw thanks! I'm always here to help if you need me

gbpatch
>>136494439

I appreciate it. And I am still going to hire sensitivity readers. It just took a lot longer for things with the KS and Backerkit and taxes/business work to truly be done, and then it was close to the trip I had planned. Now that I'm back and catching up on things, it won't be long before that happens!

Hanzie_Bearz

I admire how incredibly patient you are with the comments being rude to you fr

gbpatch
>>136764013

I'm just glad people talk to me when I'm not getting something instead of deciding the game isn't worth it and moving on.