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Poll for adding a benefit to the Archmage ($15+) tiers (Patreon)

Published:
2021-09-01 19:39:26
Imported:

Content

Hey all!


I've done a small trial run of this, and I want to check with everyone as a whole before I roll this out as an official benefit.


I have a backlog. A fairly nice, 9 chapter, 3-week backlog on top of what's on Patreon. This allows me to edit it multiple times, and gives my beta readers as much time as they want to tackle new chapters at their own pace. Recently, I've been experimenting with "Beta-Lite", people that just have access to the chapters, without the large amounts of spoilers in the beta channels.


I'm always looking for ways to give more, and I figure letting the archmage+ patreons a peek at the unpolished "what's to come" as an opt-in benefit. After all, I have a bunch of beta readers, I see no harm in letting people who want to read my unpolished work ahead of time get access.


However, it'd be all too easy to accuse me of money-grubbing, or trying to screw patrons, or it being a "new tier of content", or SOMETHING. So I'm putting it to a poll for everyone first. If the general consensus is "This is bad, I really dislike you doing it", I won't have it as a reward.


SO! "Beta-Lite" opt-in discord-required reward for Archmage and Dragon tier supports? Yes, or no, no judgement. Everyone's opinions are valid, and I'll be reading over everyone's comments before making a decision. 

Comments

Daedalus

For context as a beta reader: there will frequently be *massive* changes between the first and final draft. The second Iona interlude and the Sentinel Dawn classup in particular were nigh-unrecognizable between when we first got them and what they’re like today.

Misha

My personal problem with it is that it results in me only reading the unedited/not checked chapters so I would say the system is perfect as is.

Phil Pennock

Needs a “don’t care either way” option.

Adam Daw

I will happily throw more money at more BTDEM goodness.

LordDark

Ill be honest i dont want to have to scroll down the page more than necessary to read the most current chapter (that i have access to).

Bockus

Hmm, not something that would make me go up in tier if they chapters are "unfinished." Same reason why I stay away from the forum game that's the basis of Forge of Destiny. But, if that'll get at least one more person to hit the higher tier, than that means more support for you. So I really don't see a big issue with this.

Grissly1000

MORE MORE MORE Its your right to go money grubbing who doenst do it? and on top of it who doenst do it in a criminal way, robbing the poor, cheating, scamming, lame ass work. Your a Very Good Writer and People defintely get their moneys worth! so Give us a new Tier and MOOOORe Chapters!!!

Melting Sky

Huh, a weirdly large number of people voted no although I'm not even sure I understand the logic behind it?

Daedalus
>>66988013

I presume it’s because they dislike the “real” tier being $15 instead of $5. If the most engaged people end up going beta-lite, then the amount of discussion for people who can’t do that higher tier drops dramatically.

Melting Sky
>>66988013

No, I did read the description and I still don't get how adding another option is in any way detrimental to anyone. I guess the one guy with the scroll wheel allergy kind of had a point, but hypersensitivity to scrolling is probably a pretty rare condition.

Kirania

By all means, if some wants to give more support it is only fair they are rewarded. Go for it.

Melting Sky
>>66987883

Pssst, hey Grissly, I have a bridge you might be interested in. Super cheap. Made in America. It's the opportunity of a lifetime. You game? Also, do you happen to have any older relatives suffering from dementia? We have special discounts for the elderly and disabled!

Alexey Gladkich

The thing is, usually writers pay for beta readers, not the opposite. To be exact, "professional" beta readers are getting paid while others are getting it for free - at the price of their opinions. So I find it weird to be asked for extra payment over "beta-lite".

Taksu

Well this is essentially moving premium feeling of getting content first to another tier. Bad move imo. You'll shoot yourself in to the foot. Customer feeling satisfied is way more important than what reality actually is.

PJ LeBlanc

My biggest issue with this is 1) I generally believe it's important to keep a real buffer to prevent burnout, and this would take away from that, so adds stress to you as an author. That's not the reason for my No vote, as if you think you can handle it that's on you. 2) it makes the 'real' premium 2 tiers above, though in a few way or two other than already identified. Patron has huge issues with notifications/top-of-feeds/email updates if you're not top-tier, which I find INCREDIBLY annoying and try to remain top tier with authors I care about. 3) beta discussion, feedback to the author, etc. is really only practical for whatever the top level, most recent release in Patreon is. 4) and then that 'real top tier' is behind a price I don't pay anywhere else, but also with a) edits subject to change, which I hate, b) isn't enough chapters ahead to justify that amount. I'm sympathetic to wanting to give the most generous here additional benefits, but it would rather stick in my craw.

SelkieMyth
>>66989611

Exactly! Which is why I'm running the poll to see what customer feelings are about this

Alexey Gladkich

Okay, I have some more thoughts on the matter. I am not certain of your writing process. But professional writers usually have other friend writers help polish the ideas and writing, then editors and agents come in play for some professional help, and afterwards beta readers to get the feel for audience reception. From the description I got this tier is more like classical beta readers while what you refer to beta readers are closer to the "friend writers and editors" group as they have extra insight on the work and don't just test the initial public reception for general fixes. Normally, beta readers are those whose in-depth opinion you want to hear and listen to, and not just people that pay some extra bucks. Furthermore, while reading extra chapters can be very appealing and appear like a juicy delicious mango - the fact that they are extremely unfinished - can turn out to poisoned mango. Getting too close to the writing/editing process could end up losing some of the charm from reading it. So I wouldn't recommend offering this for just some extra dollars. That's my take on this subject.

SelkieMyth
>>66991690

You bring up three valid points! 1) Release rate isn't garunteed, but I gotta write 3 chapters a week anyways. The only difference is the "write-to-post" time changes a bit week to week. 2) It would be discord-only, so nothing would change on Patreon, or the $5 tiers end. 3) My beta system would remain unchanged

DANTE

I dont really care, depending on the level of editing it might mess with how enjoyable the narrative is for some people, its not for everyone, you cam maybe set a +5$ to the current tier to access to unedited chapters but it leave the same premium feeling, i don't think its a problem in general but if your editing its minor it might count as another tier with extra chapters

Torbjørn Nilsen
>>66988013

Honestly I would vote yes if Selkie had the same update structure on Discord as Zogarth has. A channel with only this. Leads to no scrolling around at all on Patreon which is honestly a shitt site for authors. @Hunter Chapter 302 out on Patreon: (Link) @Alchemist Chapter 278 unlocked on Patreon: (Link) @Archer Chapter 263 unlocked on Patreon: (Link) As for Selkie I wouldn't do it as it is seemingly such a contentious issue.

PJ LeBlanc
>>66991690

as long as the new stuff is contained to the discord (a google doc or something) rather than patreon posts, I don't have any objections such that it would cause me to stop supporting at the current tier :) It probably wouldn't anyways, I just know that if it weren't the top I'd get annoyed of having to manually check for new chapters such that I'd eventually purge it when I fell behind far enough.

Keith Symcox

My problem with this idea is what happens if life interferes or you have some burnout for a couple of weeks? Do you stop the "normal" releases to maintain the 15 tier advantage or does the $15 tier feel abused when they don't get any chapters for a couple of weeks while everyone else catches up to them. It seems like you are setting yourself up for lots of unnecessary drama.

SelkieMyth
>>66994611

The $15 tier "gets it when they get it" - basically, it could be thought of as a "sneak peek into the author's notes", which is how I should've framed it

luda305

Wow. The poll is neck and neck. Wonder who will get decapitated.

Treim (edited)

Comment edits

2021-09-01 22:50:00 I really do not mind either way. Honestly I think you should consider how this change will affect yourself and your writing process, because I see the potential for you getting a bunch of "weird" feedback from people that might just simply not be qualified so you clutter your feedback and therefor writing/editing process and as a consequence you might be producing worse content which mid to longterm will probably lead to less monetary income (and worse chapters and who wants that?!?). Whether or not people spoil themselves or ruin their fun when they're too close to the story editing process is of concern for you as they might lose the fun on the story entirely and therefor unsubscribe. On a purely philosophical level I'd say you shouldn't care about those people because they are ultimately responsible for their own actions, sadly you might suffer from their own irresponsibility financially. I am not sure how likely/many people would go up in tier for just this benefit and how many people would afterwards leave entirely because of either of those 2 scenarios, especially because the first point heavily depends on how much you "give a shit" about those peoples opinions and how good they actually are. On my end I will stay the same Patreon tier nonetheless because I know reading those unpolished chapters would ruin the fun for me on the story. I know this is pretty much a non answer, but what I am getting at I guess is: How much good feedback do you actually get from the people who'd use this? How responsible do you think your readers are (to avoid point 2)? How many people would up their subscription because of this? --> Do the potential benefits of those factors outweigh the risk for you. From the outside looking in I'd say you probably gain shorttermin but lose mid-longterm. Then again I can only really guess. Also there is probably other aspects to consider, that I did not see during the 5 minutes I thought about this. I hope this still helps as a starting point/part of the puzzle
2021-09-01 21:41:50 I really do not mind either way. Honestly I think you should consider how this change will affect yourself and your writing process, because I see the potential for you getting a bunch of "weird" feedback from people that might just simply not be qualified so you clutter your feedback and therefor writing/editing process and as a consequence you might be producing worse content which mid to longterm will probably lead to less monetary income (and worse chapters and who wants that?!?). Whether or not people spoil themselves or ruin their fun when they're too close to the story editing process is of concern for you as they might lose the fun on the story entirely and therefor unsubscribe. On a purely philosophical level I'd say you shouldn't care about those people because they are ultimately responsible for their own actions, sadly you might suffer from their own irresponsibility financially. I am not sure how likely/many people would go up in tier for just this benefit and how many people would afterwards leave entirely because of either of those 2 scenarios, especially because the first point heavily depends on how much you "give a shit" about those peoples opinions and how good they actually are. On my end I will stay the same Patreon tier nonetheless because I know reading those unpolished chapters would ruin the fun for me on the story. I know this is pretty much a non answer, but what I am getting at I guess is: How much good feedback do you actually get from the people who'd use this? How responsible do you think your readers are (to avoid point 2)? How many people would up their subscription because of this? --> Do the potential benefits of those factors outweigh the risk for you. From the outside looking in I'd say you probably gain shorttermin but lose mid-longterm. Then again I can only really guess. Also there is probably other aspects to consider, that I did not see during the 5 minutes I thought about this. I hope this still helps as a starting point/part of the puzzle

I really do not mind either way. Honestly I think you should consider how this change will affect yourself and your writing process, because I see the potential for you getting a bunch of "weird" feedback from people that might just simply not be qualified so you clutter your feedback and therefor writing/editing process and as a consequence you might be producing worse content which mid to longterm will probably lead to less monetary income (and worse chapters and who wants that?!?). Whether or not people spoil themselves or ruin their fun when they're too close to the story editing process is of concern for you as they might lose the fun on the story entirely and therefor unsubscribe. On a purely philosophical level I'd say you shouldn't care about those people because they are ultimately responsible for their own actions, sadly you might suffer from their own irresponsibility financially. I am not sure how likely/many people would go up in tier for just this benefit and how many people would afterwards leave entirely because of either of those 2 scenarios, especially because the first point heavily depends on how much you "give a shit" about those peoples opinions and how good they actually are. On my end I will stay the same Patreon tier nonetheless because I know reading those unpolished chapters would ruin the fun for me on the story. I know this is pretty much a non answer, but what I am getting at I guess is: How much good feedback do you actually get from the people who'd use this? How responsible do you think your readers are (to avoid point 2)? How many people would up their subscription because of this? --> Do the potential benefits of those factors outweigh the risk for you. From the outside looking in I'd say you probably gain shorttermin but lose mid-longterm. Then again I can only really guess. Also there is probably other aspects to consider, that I did not see during the 5 minutes I thought about this. I hope this still helps as a starting point/part of the puzzle

Sheepdog

Appreciate *them* doing a poll for this kind of stuff Edit*

Matthew Dennis

You should always do whats best for you. I cant afford more then 5$ per mo but if i could i would

SelkieMyth
>>66996644

Hey! I'm not sure if I'd get any feedback - the idea is more of a "sneak peek" than "I need more feedback." I'm not sure how many people would up their sub, which is a good point - it might create a lot of negative feelings, without a lot of positive impact. Heck, with the results of this poll, it's looking like there's a LOT of negative feelings, with the positives only being "Meh, if you want"

SelkieMyth
>>66997161

AH, but doing what's best for everybody is doing what's best for me! I can't be purely selfish - this is a whole community, with imputs from literally thousands of people. I can't just "Do my own thing"

Mat

I am honestly torn, on one hand i don't begrudge you at all for finding ways to lure people to higher tiers, besides even more beta readers mean even more smoothed out chapter. Still... god there is so much content behind paywalls now that i had to spend weeks debating with myself whether or not i could afford getting the full access to the chapters or not, now you are going to add ten additional chapters to a tier i just ca not afford. I won't like it, but it won't cause me to unsubscibe. the choice is yours.... or rather others.

SelkieMyth
>>66997153

I'm literally a "Don't care what you use as long as you're not trying to be offensive"

Ranorus

I would say no to this. I think there is more benefit to having the bonus chapters be all at the $5 tier, because you have more people be able to access the content and that can increase discussions around it, which then drives engagement. The community is more likely to grow if folks are engaged and spreading it to their friends/acquaintances. This will make the pie bigger in the long run vs just getting more folks at $15 tier right now. However, you gotta make the call that's best for you Selkie.

Tom Henman

Unfinished/unedited is not for me. So no problem with adding this.

Matthew Dennis
>>66997161

In 2014 i got sick. Turned out to be crohns. Ive been struggling to keep my feet under me ever since. Your story really gives me something to look forward to when my digestion quits. Im very greatful for you posting on royal road, and i will happily give more if/when i find some stability.

Melting Sky
>>66996644

I was absolutely blown away by the amount of irrational negative feedback the idea of adding another tier option has gotten even though it would change nothing in the existing tiers. I thank the dead Gods I didn't go into marketing because this has made it abundantly clear I don't know jack about predicting what will set people off. Seriously, yesterday if you asked me to bet a pinky finger on whether or not this would make people go rabid I would now be 9 fingered man.

Grissly1000
>>66987883

i will think about buying your bridge but u need to give me a fee for the time im thinking about it so 1 second of thinking will cost u 1 million dollars take your time and think about it

Cameron S. Moore

I always vote for higher-payers getting more stuff, so I like the idea. However, I hate beta-reading, so if I were an archmage I wold actually have be against the offer. Why don’t you do a separate poll just for the archmages, don’t let us plebs steel there stuff!

SelkieMyth
>>67014431

Hence me explicitly calling it out as an opt-in program! And I don't want to make people mad in general. From how the poll's going, I'm not going to do it

Scott, just Scott
>>67014431

You could randomly select someone (like me! Here I am! Over here!) and invite them to be a beta reader for a month. Do it every once in a while a to spread some good will in your subscriber community.

Ranzbart

depends on how you implement it. if you edit the posted chapters, everyone under the 14€ mark would have to manually check for updates on your patreon page, instead of having new chapters delivered to the feed. if you post them again, the normal patrons have no change, but the 14+ ones will have a double post... patreon has gotten complacent, maybe other sites like subscribestar handle this better. if not for the feed problem i would be all for it, but if you need to implement the editing solution, i would likely cancel my 4,50€ subscription on patreon; navigating to your page and scrolling down until i reach the readable chapters is not an effort i enjoy on top of spending money for it. but if there are functioning alternative sites im all for it.

Nick

Put it in perspective. A paperback book at the shops is ~$15. In comparison do you think a top tier patreon user will get enough value for money to justify spending that $15 per month on patreon instead?

Rui Lourenço
>>66988013

I voted no because this would inevitably become the real top tier. Real fans would have access and the discussion would shift in that direction. It's what always happens and being in the middling discord channels tends to be a miserable experience of chatting mostly to people that know more than you and are struggling not to spoil. I wouldn't mind paying a bit more but $10 more for unedited content seems unreasonable. And a big part of being on patreon for me is not reading chapters a few weeks early but the peace of mind of knowing there's no button I could press or money I could spend to read the next chapter sooner.