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Vinland Saga S2 Episode 10 (Patreon)

Published:
2024-12-19 17:32:31
Imported:
2024-12
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edin

People need to look at Ketil like vegans look at us. In the future we might all be vegan, and look back "can you imagine what DEMONS would make animals suffer " kind of thing.

bizarre☆azar

Ketil isn’t the best for the time he’s living in imo. He has slaves while Thors didn’t. (Him giving them an avenue for freedom is negated when not all his slaves get that option) I mean Ketil’s literally raping a slave. I think him seemingly being nice makes people lose sight that he’s not a great guy. Him being a coward is not what is giving me the ick

Yang
>>158786748

Beautiful comparison! And I'm saying that as a non-vegan and slave-enthusiast

Erik Perez
>>158789585

You can't consent if you are property. What do you honestly expect her to do, say no? She's probably scared for her life that if she rejects him then she'll die. The power imbalance here does not make it possible for actual consent.

Enemy

I too wouldn't wish to be a ruler, especially one with that ammount of power.

Back in my day Cartoons!
>>158789585

And you got the impression that Arneid consented when exactly? Even if she participates, that will always root to a lack of autonomy and her awareness of that, not for the interest of enjoying the experience herself. Consent is not just the absence of denial.

Back in my day Cartoons!
>>158786748

Why do we need to try and hear out the perspective of the mythical complex and misguided slave owners that are dead and gone? I don't understand what utility that could possibly provide unless you're a historian, there is no need for our society to try and empathise with every possible circumstance theoretically possible, that's exhausting and limiting for progress.

bizarre☆azar
>>158789585

You’re absolutely correct, that’s why I chose to use the word “rape” because she can’t and didn’t consent

Rockycitygirl
>>158789585

Ketil is obviously not a "good" guy, but it's not hard to imagine that he could be way, way worse than he is, especially with the wealth and power he has in the time period this story takes place. Also, I don’t think that because one specific slave can’t free herself negates all the positives from the ones who can. Arnheid isn’t just some sex slave to him, she’s someone special in his eyes. He trusts her and feels safe with her - he even talks about his feelings and insecurities with her. Obviously, she’s a slave and can’t choose or decide for herself, which makes it so messed up. And ignore this Yang guy he's baiting on purpose. He was already trolling on earlier episodes.

Ale

I love Canute, but I was so disappointed on him in this episode 😔

Yang
>>158789585

When he bought EInar, he asked him if he wanted to work on his farm. So he asked for Einar's consent, and i'm sure he asked Arneid for consent as well.

Kate

Canute is one of my favourite characters, even though he's not perfect. It's interesting to see how his own idealistic goals lead him to make certain decisions that do not sound too clean. But I still like that he prohibited raping/selling girls in his army.

Joshua Gilbert

Oh we're getting Canute!!!.... Oh no we're getting Canute...

edin
>>158786748

In my example I showed you it could be, and is relevant today.

Yang
>>158786748

Edin is absolutely correct. The arrogance of believing one’s current morality to be inherently superior to those of the past or even the future is absurd unless you’re operating within a religious framework that claims objective moral truth. Morality is inherently subjective, shaped by culture, time, and circumstance. A slave owner from a thousand years ago, someone adhering to today’s popular moral standards, or an individual living by the hypothetical morals of a thousand years in the future are all equally valid from a purely relativistic standpoint. None hold any intrinsic superiority over the other; it’s all a matter of perspective dictated by temporal and societal context.

Chels

A) The intro is so amazing! I normally dislike watching anime intros/outros but this is one of those rare few that I would YouTube while gaming to just listen to lol but the imagery is sooo good too. B) I am so glad ya'll break down that verse in the beginning because I had a hard time wrapping my mind around it and now I get why. I tend to have opposing thoughts REALLY bad and interpret things from a "fence" perspective, weighting 2 opposing thoughts and having to mull over which one I agree with over a span of days 😅 so I think I was doing that here, but when Steph broke it down from her perspective and Wes from his, that made it so much easier to think about. Plus I'm a debate addict so I would have brought this topic to Rhetoric class if I was still in it 😂 I kind of vibe with Wes's interpretation sliiiightly more I think, though Steph's aligns more with my religious beliefs (Lokean norse pagan) where my patron is Loki who represents liminality and adaptability, I try to practice Radical Acceptance because the core nature of my beliefs is "you can't plan for the unforseen events of the future, but you can mold your own attitude and what you do in the moment to get an outcome you desire and deserve. Not what you wanted when looking ahead, but something surprising and sweeter" (quoted from my Lokean mentor) However, despite that being what I strive for, realistically, that's so HARD to do lol so while I'm still working on that, I lean towards Wes's interpretation. It feels more like trying to find an understanding to a problem unique to humans. We are blessed and cursed with insight and the ability to look backwards and forwards to shape our lives, and that leaves a lot of people either stuck in the past, or fearful of the future. Another thought from his interpretation is that feeling of eternity, where time truly doesn't exist in our minds and we can perceive realities for ourselves that never existed and will never exist, leaving us lost in the present. Especially when you have a neurodivergence like ADHD for example, where time blindness is something we struggle with on top of a lack of object permanence. It can feel like we live in a broken simulation, glitching in and out of our reality. There are so many ways I could look at what that quote is saying but those are some of the thoughts I had lol anyway, I love conundrums like that, but I think the "question" that Wes's interpretation leaves, Steph's interpretation is the "answer." If we are infinite beings in finite bodies, how do we trust the path we walk? How do we know what is real? How do we stay grounded in the present when our minds place us in other realities? I feel like Steph's interpretation leaves you with an answer of "you can't trust looking to the future, and you can't change the past, everything is uncertain except where you are right now and the way you live right now" I probably went way beyond what that quote actually says and probably sound like a stoner now 🤣 but that is some of the web my brain spun off of what the quote said and your interpretations. Going to write that down and mull over it some more.

James
>>158888247

I like how you pointed out the ability to look forward and backward is a "problem unique to humans," and how you use the term "time blindness." Wes also mentioned that "we are external creatures with finite time." It might be a little early to apply the biblical quotes to the Vinland Saga story, but nevertheless, it should be pointed out. I have another interpretation of what was said by the quotes, but it's actually one of the major philosophical points in Steins;Gate. They're still in the world and character building phase in that story, and haven't reach the turning point yet, so I'm keeping vague and quiet about it.

Chels

Yooo! This story is more real than I thought 😂 I was thinking this was the type of show that you follow a fictional character's story within a real historical context and historical figures (Leif Erikson, Thorkell the Tall, Sweyn, ect.) But no, we are watching a real authentic legend (legend: Folklore Anthropology term for a traditional story, in other words, passed down generationally, that is based from real stories and real figures, but over time become transformed into something askew from the real true story) This is so cool! So Thorfinn was the explorer Thorfinn Karlsefni who did the coolest shit I can't say because it is relevant to the show, Canute was Canute the Great, a real Danish king of England (ironic most people think of Norway as the top dogs of Vikingr history, but the Danes were the ones actually making waves. Who knew?) Harald it seems nobody can decide if he was actually real, he might just be legend, but some historians affirm they found archeological evidence that could suggest he was in fact, alive at some point but whether or not he was the first real king of the north, is up for debate apparently. The show did something odd though and put Thorkell in the show right? Ragnar and his brother who both carry names of real historical figures, are both based on Thorkell also. (Like, their roles and actions are what Thorkell was said to have done in history) 🥰 I love this show 8x as much now. I think it still is a little too based on what the English monks wrote who had huge biases, but it does an amazing job introducing us to historical figures and some semblance of how the wars affected the common people after having settled in each other's territories. Plus now I know, they did a great job introducing historical figures who otherwise we might not have realized existed. Thorfinn being a HUGE historical figure and my not knowing that despite the amount I research Scandinavian culture and history just goes to show that we really don't know much about these major events because the history we learn in school is so manipulative and outdated! (Also don't take what I said as I think I know everything, I just mean that I am someone who as an Anthropology student obsessed with my family history, go above the norm in researching everything I can, and I have never known many of these historical figures and their stories. The main ones I know are related to the unification of Scandinavian tribes, Ragnar Lothbrok, and the myths and folklore type figures. So how can the average person even learn about these people? Clearly anime is the answer 😂 high school failed)

Fabien

To be fair, historically it was EXTREMELY common for brothers inheriting/sharing a territory, even if they started in good terms, to end up fighting each other. Sooner or later. Civil wars can be nasty, even if it wasn't a certainty either.

Fabien
>>158895254

There was (of course) a lot of "Harald" throughout history, and this one was just exactly what the story in Vinland Saga says he is: the brother of Cnut the Great, Harald II of Denmark. Nothing to do with the figure you're talking about, not the same historical period nor the same place. Also, the history learned in school isn't strictly speaking manipulative, but just very basic. So most people don't know most historical figures, simply because there's just too many of them.

Chels
>>158895254

Ok thanks for the heads up! Everything I could read at the moment was contradictory so I was planning to find more info in my school's peer-reviewed archives later, but you helped me narrow down that search 👍 As for the school comment, your right, I probably didn't take into account that every state and country have their own curriculum the districts agree upon, so I'll amend, MY schools (middle and 3 high schools) were horrifically manipulative and outdated. Well.. not the last school I went to, they actually made me realize I had been lied to my whole life by the other ones 😅 they were a "delinquent school" or "alternative" they call it, so somehow that gave them freedom to break all the rules I guess? I dunno. Anyway, there is a LOT I could unpack about those other schools (psychological torture, being run the same as the 19-somethings back when school was a training program meant to condition kids to become American work force/soldiers, breaking all kinds of laws in relation to religious freedoms and disability acts, so on..) but the specific thing I think of when I say manipulative, is this textbook we had in every history class. It was an extremely outdated book I later learned had been banned for the amount of misinformation, the amount of propaganda used from WW2, and the fact that it basically dehumanized Japanese people, only referring to them as "yellow monkeys".. ya, I learned that racist ass term from a TEXTBOOK 🤯 (my aunt is Japanese, so you can imagine how I responded and how fast and how often I was removed from class) I kid you not, my school experiences were outright and blatantly conditioning us to be American-extremist, painting everything in a God and Country, America is the only good guy saving the world, golden light to the point that for a long time, I believed every other country lived in the dark ages and we were out there saving them and the only ones who participated in any wars, or that we never committed war crimes while everyone else was out there torturing each other and themselves. So, so bad. It wasn't until waaaay later than I like to admit, when the last HS I went to actually said that Norway and the ironically "neutral" Sweden were probably the biggest contributors to allied forces (a term that def didn't exist in that textbook) during WW2 and are low-key the reason we survived and won due to Norway's covert operations and military tactics, and Sweden's massive relief efforts and merchantry. This got me curious enough to research on my own and hoo-boy.. talk about your world flipping upside down. Everything, down to just the smallest perception of the pledge of allegiance, had been filtered through a idealized siv. And then there's the churchy private school's curriculum. 😅 every book, every class (except poetry, whose teacher actually got fired over trying to speak for this gay student that had been getting mistreated allegedly) was centered around Christianity and in a very convertist kind of way. At that age, I was not having it after so many bad experiences with Christian-based religious people, so I flat out was refusing to participate in anything and when my teacher slammed down a "Jesus Loves You" book in front of me and demanded I read it out loud to him until it "fixed my hell-spawn brainwashing" (pagan family) so I told him (sorry Christians) he could take Jesus's dick and shove it down his throat since he had too big of a stick up his ass to fit it there, then threw the book at him.. 🤣😅 probably a better way I could have done that, but you know, angsty-edgey-goth-teen.. anyway, so they managed to expel me using my disability as an excuse for legal reasons, but everyone that knew about my religion and my previous conflicts with the school knew the real reason was because I was against their whole program. They did the same thing to several other students who were either LGBT, openly atheist/non-Christian, and even certain ethnicities who "didn't behave properly" ie. Lay low. They can't legally kick students out for these reasons obviously, so they often put a LOT of extra pressure on these students, like forcing them to pray in a corner for our one and only 15 min lunch break (mind you, this was pretty much an all day school. It was so far out in the country, we had to take the 6am bus to make it on time, and school didn't let out until 5 but for some reason they were able to keep students til 7 for specific reasons and then they'd have to get a ride home, so I often didn't get home until after sunset) so the students that had to do this would only be allowed to eat a light snack during class. They would give us extra homework (usually studying a verse from the Bible and writing a report on our interpretation, or something in that similar vein. I read the "shan't suffer a witch to live" line a lot for some reason~ 🤔) or just blatant criticism and outcast from the teachers where we'd be removed from class to do "self study" in the hall, automatically failing every class quiz given at the mid-end of each class, which landed us in detention for low marks. Basically, they were trying to drive the students out, or pushing them into mistakes they could use to expel them, which happened to the gay kid I mentioned. He was such a good kid, mega smart, tried to please the teachers in any way he could, but they put him into situations that pushed him and pushed him so they could say "he was a trouble maker" and it was a huge ordeal. Most of the students and the poetry teacher were throwing a fit about how bs that was and we all got punished. The teacher, they said she resigned, but I was friends with her on Facebook (I worked with her on grading papers and things and needed a way to contact her. This was back when FB was meant only for students and teachers) ugh.. sorry this is lengthy, I totally understand if you gave up on reading this 😅 I just wanted to explain why my experiences leave me with a perception that schools are failing their students and doing some shitty things. One could say that this was so long ago, but it's still happening and even in other states. They are removing any books on sex ed (literally just about anatomy, periods, ect. Nothing that warrants removal) anything labeled as an LGBT book like Love Simon or Achilles, or that has LGBT themes (like one random side character on page 59 being mentioned to have a crush on another character who's the same gender) or more ridiculously, they are trying to shut down rhetoric classes in university here, which is a super scary idea considering the class is entirely about learning how to do your own research and ways to look for signs that you are being misled, gaslit, manipulated, whatever. They removed several of our classes related to Native American culture/language due to the "conflicts" about how they were treated. They removed our 2 classes we had on studying sexual and gender identity, a very popular class given the confusion people feel around those topics, even if your not LGBT. It's getting pretty scary ngl. My cousins (from different states) are all worried about how much the school system is going to change in the next 4 yrs, since we're already seeing little changes happening that have massive connotations. Even the government class I had to take to get my GED/HSE was removed for being "too political" and I remember that being a very positive class to help understand how our Government functions, the importance of voting, and understanding our rights in a way that no school ever taught me, like there is a lot of misconceptions around what we believe to be our constitutional rights, or more poignantly, I was never taught that I had certain rights 😅 eg. I had no idea I had a 504 in school, which is a system that utilizes your constitutional right for aid when you have a disability. The schools are legally required to provide accommodation and support if they see an area you are struggling with due to your limitations. Not knowing the details of this system up til adulthood has completely and utterly destroyed my ability to do well in school, despite knowing the content. My report cards are full of "doesn't pay attention" "is too disruptive" "extremely intelligent and so much wasted potential. Needs to start coming to class and complete homework on time" "does amazing on tests but fails homework and has never come to class prepared, missing book, pencils, and notebook" all easily fixable ADHD problems if the teachers gave a crap. Some did, and they're the reasons I ever made it to Uni, but that is 4 teachers in my entire school life who actually acknowledged my needs. Not understanding our rights is a huge handicap when it comes to the people in power imposing their will upon us and making choices for us with no understanding of our situations, yet they want to remove the only class that bothers to teach us? Same with rhetoric, I fully believe it should be taught at younger ages at its fullest capacity because it helped me out of an abusive situation (not physically, but mentally) and I agree with Aristotle that it's a skill all humans need to be privy to so that the powerful can't easily take advantage of our ignorance. Ach du lieber, I'm so sorry again 😂 I will stop now.. I get too excited and ya.. even though I don't blame you if you don't read all that, I do hope you or anyone else want to talk more on that, I'd be very interested to read anyone else's experiences with school. If you loved or hated it and why, but totally cool if not. I wish 10 minutes of conversation didn't look like a whole book in chat lol

Chels
>>158895254

Just going to reiterate here that you/anyone else can totally skim my other comment if you want, I understand it's absurdly long, but if anyone likes this topic and discussion, I would be happy to read your experiences, if you liked or hated school, why, ect. But totally cool if you aren't interested.

Carl Carlsonn
>>158895254

Also dont forget King Artorious and the battle of badon hil which is based on King Arthur and the battle of badon.

A.J. Ramos

This episode was really a wake up call to Canute’s upbringing. Seeing his drastic measures to get higher and higher in the chain of command. But once he’s king, he just needs to hold onto it and take over more places for more power. And in that effort controlling everything, he can “build a utopia” though stacked onto piles of bodies in his wake of power.

Chels
>>158895254

True true, they do mention him quite a bit too ☺️ Funny, I grew up thinking of king Arthur as like.. Dragon Heart style English medieval because of Sword in the Stone, but now that I know he was a Roman/Welsh, the legend around him makes soooo much more sense! The English didn't have lore of Nymphs and male mages, but the Roman's adapted their beliefs from the Greeks, so that explains characters like Lady of the Lake and Merlin. I've never really been interested in looking into his legend and real history, but maybe I should 🤔